Laptop Update

[Antoine]

An update from this thread:

https://pchelpforum.net/t/laptop-fan-sounds-terrible.20308/

Ok so after finally mustering up the courage to open up my laptop and do some dust removing. When the laptop is turned upside down and the battery end is facing you while the fan end is at the top (facing away from you) I dont know which fan is which but I noticed the compressed air had enough force to spin the left fan while the right fan wouldnt budge from it (i even tried spinning the right fan with my finger with no luck.. however if I pushed it i would move it... i didnt take LOT of more to move but it only moves I cant spin it manually.. which is odd since Id think you should be able to do that to a fan). So after the dusting was complete I thought the problem was solved. I put everything back together and turned it back on.

theres still a fan thats louder than it should be and then theres the motor or vibrating sound. the CPU temps are still at 65-80c when just idling at the desktop and typing at a web browser (like this message Im typing now) which isnt a BAD temp but I dont think it should be that hot from doing something so minimal right? the NON integrated GPU temps are 45-55c which also isnt bad except for the fact that that GPU is currently inactive as nothing is running that would require the use of that GPU (my windows taskbar even SAYS that GPU is inactive) so isnt that hot for a gpu that isnt even in use, not to mention the fan is loud lol.

So i finally did some more detective work and at least confirmed the source of the noises. Now keeping the laptop positioning mentioned above in mind. I noticed the loud spinning fan is the fan on the left (when positioned and facing as i mentioned) which I THINK is the gpu fan. Now Ive heard that fan loud in the past before so that WOULDNT be abnormal except in the past when it was loud its only when I was playing a graphically intense game or running a games benchmark. When I was doing anything else it was quiet as a mouse, now however that loudness is constant and always happening 100% of the time regardless to what Im doing, and if its that loud now just browsing the Internet Im scared to even TRY playing a game with it lol. However the temp reading dont match the fan speed. i,e despite the fan being stupidly loud the temp is showing at only 45-55c which is definitely not a high temp and a fan wouldnt be that loud at that temp.

Now the motor/vibrating sound is coming from the fan on the right (so I was wrong in my assessment of where the sound was coming from in my first thread). Im guessing that the CPU fan? Now the CPU and core temps are at 55-70c when idling at the desktop or typing in web browsers which again isnt a high temp but like stated before shouldn't be that high if thats all thats being done. Whereas If Im watching youtube videos or movies on my laptop then those core and cpu temps shoot up to 90-100c (im shocked I havent shut down to avoid overheating at all.. but I guess it has to hit 101 or 102 before that happens?)

So based on everything what would you say the next course of action would be? My guess would be that the right fan DEFINITELY needs to be replaced because that vibrating/motor sound isnt normal whereas the left fan could be replaced but doesnt NEED to be (as that fan is SUPPOSED to be loud its just not supposed to be loud ALL THE TIME). I can replace both fans for 50 bucks or less. But the issue is that I dont want to do that if its not GUARANTEED the solve the issues mentioned. I mean if the fans werent spinning or generating cool air then yes new fans would 100% guaranteed fix that problem, however I have visual proof that the current fans do spin when the laptop is on and when I put my hand very close I can feel cool air being generated. So as far as what I know about fans, it seems the current ones are doing their jobs/what theyre supposed to (i.e spin and make things cooler) yet the noise, loudness and higher temps than normal when doing nothing persist) so how do we KNOW new fans are gonna be any different/change anything? Sure Im 100% sure the motor/vibrating sound of the right fan WILL be fixed with a new one, but what about the other issues outlined?

 

[Antman]

A. Do not spin the fan with compressed air. The bearing is not designed to support the RPM rate that compressed air will generate.
B. Those fans should expel warm or hot air. Cool air indicates a poor thermal transfer.
C. The fan that will not spin with compressed air has a failed bearing.
D. Stop thinking of cooling as the function of a single component. Cooling is a system.

If you replace one fan, consider replacing both. Labor is labor and the time on task is the same. That is your call, though. A quick review of disassembly of your model indicates that the task is fairly simple.
There is a thermal compound between the CPU / GPU chip and the cooling plate. The fan cools the cooling plate assembly, not the chip.
That thermal compound will fail. No exceptions. Time to failure is dependent on several factors. Notably "the laptop is 4 years old and NEVER gets shut down".

When you replace the fan(s), clean the chip surface and cooling plate surface completely. Isopropyl alcohol ($2 at the pharmacy) is sufficient to the task. Buy quality cotton swabs while you are there. You will use several.
Decent thermal compound is worth the $8. Arctic Silver 5, MX4, MX2 - whatever. Opinions and test results vary. None of that white crap.
LESS IS MORE. The purpose of thermal compound is to minimize/virtually eliminate the microscopic gaps in surface contact. Too much forms a blanket and is almost worse than using nothing. Google [apply thermal compound] videos.

Your detailed reports indicate a condition where this task is mandatory.

 

[Antman]

Following the above task, if the cooling performance is not significantly improved, the heat pipes in the cooling plate assembly(s) are indicted.

It is unlikely that the cooling liquid has escaped/evaporated, it is more common for a 'vapor lock' condition to occur. The liquid and air can distribute internally in such a way that the liquid/air cannot overcome the air/liquid pressure to circulate as designed. This most commonly occurs under extreme heat or cold conditions. If your laptop has never executed a Thermal Shutdown (instantaneous power off), a high heat condition probably did not occur. But, there is more than one reason why PCs have a minimum temperature operating environment. You can freeze a cooling assembly heat pipe into a vapor lock condition. The temperature necessary to freeze the heat pipes is dependent on the cooling liquid. I have no idea what is in your pipes.

The point remains, if the re-application of thermal compound + new fan(s) do not solve the problem, the cooling plate assembly is scheduled for service or replacement.

 

[Antoine]

well Im 100% sure replacing both ans are within my ability and I plan to do that in fact. Not so sure if I can handle the removal and reapplication of thermal paste however. For example isnt 4 year old thermal paste dry and HARD thus would RUBBING it off with alcohol and a cotton swab be enough or would you need something more abrasive to "scratch" it off? if so wouldn't scratching if off obviously risk damaging the system? If rubbing it with a cotton swab is more than enough to remove the hard crust then ok that too is an easy task but then theres learning how to reply more paste, but thats nothing youtube cant solve.

 

[Antman]

It sloughs off easily with a credit card other firm plastic edge. ez pz
The alcohol is for removing the short ton that remains behind, 99% of which you cannot see. It is common to use 20 or more cotton swabs, per surface, before you get a clean swab.

NO ABRASIVES, NO SHARP EDGES OR TOOLS!

 

[Antoine]

20 swabs PER surface? Just how many surfaces are there >.>

 

[Antman]

One for GPU, one for GPU cooling assembly
One for CPU, one for CPU cooling assembly

1+1+1+1=4

 

[Antoine]

well if it takes that many swabs how do you know when youre done? I mean if you cant see it then how would you know youve done a good job getting it all off.

Also as for no shutdowns.. I take that back.. there has been at least two occasions when my laptop was left on before work then when i came back it was off. but this was also during the Summer when it was already stupidly hot thus making the laptop heat obviously worse, but only in Summer never any other time a year and this was like a year ago and long before the "super loud fan" and "motor/vibrating sounding fan" noises started happening. SO I thought nothing of it. I mean I knew the issue was most likely due to overheating. But if it turned on and worked I wasnt worried about it, plus its not like I can make the Summer's cooler, and Ive been using a cooling system under my laptop since day one. So I figured theres nothing more I really could do about it since it only happened in the Summer anyway and hasnt happened in over a year now (didnt happen this past Summer) so I figured it was just a fluke,. But yes it HAS happened at least twice. Dunno if that changes your assessment or anything.

 

[Antman]

Examples of morons doing the wrong thing abound on YouTube. I have not found a video that does not include an error. See screenshots for an example of proper amount and an example of what happens when the assembly is fastened. Note that it is not necessary to cover the CPU/GPU 100%. The cores are not located at the edges.

You can achieve 100% coverage by using a spreader or a credit card edge, but it is good science applied in a useless way.

Do not remove the CPU from the socket.
Do not touch the cleaned surface.
Do not touch the compound - with anything. Period. Unless you use a spreader or credit card edge for no reason. The point is - introduce NO foreign material of any kind.

well if it takes that many swabs how do you know when youre done? I mean if you cant see it then how would you know youve done a good job getting it all off.

Also as for no shutdowns.,. But yes it HAS happened at least twice. Dunno if that changes your assessment or anything.

You will know you are done when the swabs come off clean (or 99% clean). Perfection is not required. Emphasis made so that you know it will take some effort. More swabs, not more power.

If you were in a bench tech environment, we would pull the CPU or take other protective measures and 'soak' the compound with hydrogen peroxide, but this isn't really necessary. Peroxide is just cheaper than alcohol and lets you use a towel instead of a swab. We would still use alcohol after the peroxide.

Thermal Shutdown of a CPU is no big deal. It is a protective function hard-coded into the CPU to prevent damage. Twice, or even 12, in a hot environment over a four year period is of no concern - especially in light of your statement of an extended time between the shutdowns and the loud fan issue. I am often guilty of detailing how to build a watch when the question was 'what time is it'.

 

[Antoine]

Ok first you say "You can achieve 100% coverage by using a spreader or a credit card edge" then "Do not touch the compound - with anything. Period. Unless you use a spreader or credit card edge for no reason." Ummm then what is the card for? If the card is JUST for cleaning paste off and not reapplying paste, ok then how does the paste get put on properly if its not being spread with something? surely I dont just put a dot of paste in the middle and let time and gravity and the heat from the laptop being used, do the rest?

 

[Antman]

A dab in the center. The relative size shown above. Pressure does the trick. Immediately. 100% effective coverage.
Complete coverage, edge to edge, is not more effective.

Time has nothing to do with spreading the compound. Time is involved in how long some compounds require to cure. Do not concern yourself with cure times. The improvement will be immediate. Over time, performance will improve.
We are not overclocking or building to set a record. We are removing and applying thermal compound in a professional manner.

I mentioned the option to spread because some of the videos you will see employ this pointless technique. Of those that do, some will use a latex glove on their finger to spread the compound. None of those persons could work for me if they did that a second time.

I am making my best effort that you understand the videos you see will remain in context. I cannot find a video that is 100% accurate, else I would link it.

 

[Antman]

Your cooling assembly is shown here (I think this is it, anyway). Note the 98% waste of thermal compound.

Center a dab on the CPU / GPU. Size shown above. Fasten assembly. Screw in diagonal order, not adjacent order.

 

[Antman]

20 seconds of useful video that shows why 'less is more'. Please note: you do not have this type of cooler. The young man correctly employs the credit card spread technique, but it DOES NOT APPLY to your technology.


https:\\youtu.be/rjF5jabXRCY?t=40

 

[Antoine]

looking at the picture is post #12 is that the only place Ill be applying thermal paste (i believe you said there should be 4 surfaces, that pic only shows 1) and Ill be applying it to the part that shows the dry paste on the point thats connected to the motherboard (just one dab of paste in the center) not on the gold piece hes holding in his hand correct? or is it the other way around?

 

[Antman]

There are two cooling assemblies (two fans). Each has two surfaces - the chip and the plate.

You will clean four surfaces. You will apply thermal compound to two surfaces.

It does not matter if you apply the thermal compound to the plate or the chip. The chip is easy, the plate will be cumbersome, challenging, problematic, easy to screw up. Your choice which option you choose - easy or needlessly difficult. Call me lazy, I almost always take the easy way out.

 

[Antoine]

ok this is gonna be a really dumb question but Im gonna ask anyway. There are two cooling assemblies which you say are the two fans. Each cooling assembly (thus each fan) has two surfaces, the chip and the plate. So youre saying the plate is the bottom of the fan and the fans plate sits on the chip? Cause Im sure thats not what the picture suggests.

 

[Antman]

The fan is wholly separate from the cooling plate. The cooling plate, the fan, and in some cases, mounting gear, are a cooling assembly. Without reviewing anything I posted earlier, I will stipulate that I often refer to the cooling assembly as 'the fan'. My bad.

I do not know if I used a picture of a laptop that is a 100% match for your laptop. If you posted a photo of your laptop, I would be better able to be more specific.

 

[Antoine]

Btw how do we even know if the thermal compound has failed? I mean you mentioned leaving a laptop on 4 years straight might be indicative. However my laptop isnt using stock thermal paste. I had the "good stuff" put in the day it was built. That being said Ive heard of ppls paste holding up just fine today from PCs they had since 1993. Now sure those PCs may have been shut down and stuff with regular usage. But even then surely a laptop thats been on 4 years straight has just as much if not less "powered on" time than a PC thats 24 years old and gets shut down after every use right?

 

[Antman]

https://pchelpforum.net/t/laptop-update.20678/#post-39289

Cooling is a system, not a component. Treat a failure of a component as a failure of the system. Repair the system.
My analysis is valid and complete.

Do as you see fit.

 

[Antoine]

Ok I dont know if this problem is related. But today when I got off work I turned on my laptop (yes it get turned off now) it got to the Windows login screen. I got ready to type in my password then the screen went black and laptop shut down (now keep in mind its been off 12+ hours so has had LOTS of time to cool down). So I turn it back on and this time during start up (before it even gets to the windows screen) it starts beeping LOUDLY... and I dont mean those small quiet startup beeps most PCs make. I mean fire/burgular alarm sounding LOUD beeps. So I quickly held the power button down to turn it off in fear.

Then I looked it up online to see if anything was said about it. Apparently the number of beeps tells you what the problem is, though I dont know if theyre referring to the small silent pc startup beeps I mentioned before or if they are talking about the LOUD beeps I heard.

So I turned it on again to count the beeps. It beeped loudly 5 times then. "Preparing automatic repair" came up, followed by "diagnosing your pc" once it got to that screen I held the power button again and turned it off. As Im afraid that if it DOES fix anything that fix is gonna consist of me losing tons of data on my hard drive that I cant afford to.

Now Im hoping that first shutdown during windows login was just due to overheating. But if that were the case it's shut down once or twice in the past then worked just fine with no beeping or "preparing automatic repair"

But if so then why would it choose to get worried about overheating now when its worked just fine all this time with the issue its had? I could see if one of both of the fans died completely and thus arent spinning thus automatic overheat.. which would explain why it shut down during login. However I can hear both fans spinning just fine (kinda hard not too with as loud as they are and one that sounds like a motor).

I really hope the issue is just heat and everything will boot up fine and go back to normal once the fans and paste have been replaced. It would truly suck if my laptop kicked the bucket literally the day before the items needed to fix it are too be delivered.

The fact that it at least starts up at tries auto repair gives me SOME hope. I mean a dead laptop (or one that couldnt be fixed) wouldnt power on (or it would power on but not try to boot up/auto repair) at all right?